Lepak za drvo

boggy · Post by **boggy** » 24 Jan 2008 00:28

djagi wrote:....Mislim da ga vise nema.....

Mislio si na ovo: http://www.dick.biz/cgi-bin/dick.storef ... talog/1257 ?

pozdrav

bogi

djagi · Post by **djagi** » 24 Jan 2008 00:37

Bas to ,gde ga nadje.Ima li ga kod nas u radnji?

boggy · Post by **boggy** » 24 Jan 2008 02:31

djagi wrote:Bas to ,gde ga nadje.Ima li ga kod nas u radnji?

Hm... mene to podseca na tutkalo, to su i moleri koristili.... dal' ga ima i gde ovde po radnjama ne znam.... po belom svetu ga ima... koristi se i dan danas za muzicke instrumente...
Koliko vidim, zovu ga "hide glue", ima ga u tecnom stanju i u granulama, granule se rastvaraju u vodi... greje/kuva se itd... sve mi je to poznato... znaci ima ga ravnopravno sa svim ostalim lepcima (lepkovima?) za drvo.

pozdrav

bogi

velja · Post by **velja** » 24 Jan 2008 08:56

Taj kozni je ustvari od kopita i nesto se koristi od zeceva (mislim koza ili nesto drugo). Kad sam bio klinac, secam se, deda je grejao stalno na sporetu u radionici tutkalo i znam da je smrdelo kao buba. Ono sto je bitno- taj ne pusta gde uhvati. Tajna je u tome sto se na visokim teperaturama razmeksa pa ne puca. Za restauraciju je interesantno da kad se razgreju spojevi moze da se rastavi.

boggy · Post by **boggy** » 24 Jan 2008 11:04

hm... smesno bi bilo da se danas tutkalo mora kupovati na Visa Virtuon karticu

velja · Post by **velja** » 24 Jan 2008 11:21

Sto jes' jes'!

boggy · Post by **boggy** » 24 Jan 2008 20:16

Mozda je vecina vas ovo videla, ali svejedno, nadjoh ovaj veoma zanimljiv clanak o testiranju cvrstina spojeva koje prave razlicite vrsta lepkova (lepaka?) za drvo. Test je uradio stolarski magazin "Fine Woodworking", i na ovom linku (Titebond sajt) je dostupan besplatno...

http://www.titebond.com/Download/pdf/Ho ... ue_FWW.pdf

Ako ima onih koji ne znaju engleski, mozemo ukratko prevesti glavne zakljucke... naravno, ako ima zainteresovanih.

Rezultati/zakljucci su veoma zanimljivi, i barem meni... koji inace o ovoj temi malo znam... i cudim se da takvih testova nema na svakom koraku... mislim... lepimo drvo, ili sta vec, da se, barem, ne odlepi suvise lako... barem ja tako to shvatam

pozdrav

bogi

Post by **Dule** » 24 Jan 2008 21:10

Slike su prelepe,a sta pise ili sta je zakljucak?

boggy · Post by **boggy** » 24 Jan 2008 22:05

Dule wrote:Slike su prelepe,a sta pise ili sta je zakljucak?

Pokusacu, ako se nalupetam, neka me neko ispravi.

Pa ovako, sustinska je ona tabela.... tu u kolonama navode silu koju su primenjivali i pri kojoj je puklo drvo ili se odvojio spoj ili i jedno i drugo...

U pitanju su bili sledeci lepkovi:

1. PVA, polivinil acetat, ili ti, "zuti" ili "beli" lepak... prakticno mnogo raznih lepaka za drvo su "PVA" recimo, Bison Wood D2 i D3 jesu, ako se dobro secam, dok za Henkel Moment Standard, za njega ne znam koji mu je sastav... mada isto mirise kao i Bison Wood D2... i ima ih jos... cela "familija" je u pitanju.. i to je neki standardni stolarski lepak za drvo... po ceni je skoro najjeftiniji... ako izuzmemo industrijske, formaldehidne lepkove. Znaci to su slicne stvari... jedino se formule malo razlikuju, ali neke generalne osobine ostaju iste (neotpornost na mraz, brzina delovanja... itd)

1a. U toj grupi se nasao i novi Titebond III, koji je isto PVA, ali sa modifikovanom formulom... pa je izasao kao pobednik... dok je obicni PVA lepak bio treci.

2. Zatim je tu bio poliuretanski lepak za drvo (Gorilla glue)... znaci lepkovi za drvo na bazi poliuretana.
3. Epoxy, lepak baziran na dvokomponentnom epoxy-ju... koristi se za svasta pa i za drvo.
4. "Hot Hide glue", "kozni" lepak, tutkalo, u granulama, rastvara se u vodi, greje .. pa se vruc koristi.
5. "Liquid Hide glue", opet tutkalo ali se ne greje, nego je rastvoreno u urei, i odmah se moze lepiti

Komade/spojeve su spremili tako kao sto vidite... s tim sto su imali verziju spoja gde jedan u drugi komad ulazi jako tesno (tight), zatim ulazi, hm... "knap" (snug), i labavo (loose)... time su testirali koliko lepak moze da popuni i zalepi dva dela cak i ako nisu idealno spremljene povrsine i ne nalezu idealno... i ima zazora... stege nisu koristili

Od drveta su koristili Oak - hrast , Maple - javor i IpÃª - neko tropsko tvrdo drvo.

U kolonama su sile pri kojima je spoj prestao da postoji, merena je iz tri pokusaja, pa racunata srednja vrednost... sila je u lb. kada podelite sa 2.2 dobijate kilograme.... tezinu kojiom je to bilo pritisnuto pa je puklo.

neki zakljucci su:

1. Obicni stolarski lepak (na bazi PVA, Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue) je prakticno isto toliko snazan kao i skuplji stolarski lepak koji je takodje PVA ( u pitanju je Titebond III, koji je vodootporan, i daje vise vremena korisniku za sklapanje... sporije se susi)

2. Epoxy lepak nije uvek neophodan za tvrdo tropsko drvo, i obican stolarski lepak moze da dobro posluzi..

3. Hladno tutkalo nije losije od vruceg tutkala,... kako valjda stari stolari pricaju... naprotiv.. bolje lepi hladno tutkalo.. u ovom slucaju

4. Prica je zazoru izmedju komada koji se lepe... Uglavnom svi lepkovi koji su se dobro pokazali lepe dobro bez obzira da li je zazor skoro nikakav ili postoji mali... cak za tvrdo tropsko drvo i treba ostaviti mali zazor da bi se bolje zalepilo.... ovo se uglavnom tice stega i stezanja... da li stezanje utice na povecanje cvrstine spoja i u kojoj meri... Inace... nijedan komad nije stezan stegom u toku susenja lepka... samo namazano i smontirano... i ostavljeno tako... cini mi se oko tri nedelje... do testa.

5. Tutkalo se bolje ponasa sa drvetom otvorenih pora, kao sto je javor... te tako objasnjavaju zasto je tutkalo koristeno puno za mahagoni...

6. Poliuretanski lepak je ovde pao na ispitu, pogotovo ako postoji veliki zazor izmedju dva komada koji se lepe.. to se skoro ni ne zalepi... (a recimo... Gorilla glue se svuda pojavljuje na internetu... kao najbolji lepak za drvo na planeti... pricam ti pricu)

Eto to bi bilo to.. na brzinu... gresaka ima sigurno... ali sustina je tu... sve sto ste do sada koristili kao sasvim "prizemno" resenje... se pokazalo odlicnim... to mu je neka poruka...

Ko ima zivaca... nek dopuni sta sam ja ispustio ili pogresno rekao.

pozdrav

bogi

Post by **Dule** » 25 Jan 2008 00:26

Hvala boggy i na ovome,mislim da je dovoljno,imas pivo na skupu stolara.

boggy · Post by **boggy** » 13 Feb 2008 10:50

Evo nadjoh na nekom sajtu za brodogradnju jos malo teksta o lepkovima:

Prilazem ga na engleskom... pa ako bude vremena... moze se prevoditi deo po deo:

boatdesign.net wrote:General Notes on Glues and Goos: From various posts by Bob Smalser

Resorcinol: The marine standard. If you can get 70 degrees F or higher for an overnight cure and consistent and high clamping pressure with no gaps, you wonâ€™t go wrong using it. Likes wood at 10-15% EMC, according to Navy tests. Long open time. Repairable with epoxy. Ugly red glue line.

Marine Epoxy: The repair and restoration standard. Bonds well to a wide variety of materials, and usable in almost all flexibility and temperature conditions. Needs no clamping pressure, only contactâ€¦fills gaps well. Likes wood below 12% EMC. Repairable with itself, joints can often be broken apart for repair with using heat. Clear glue line and can be dyed to match the wood. Controllable open time with different hardeners. Although cured epoxy is effectively waterproof, it is slightly permeable to water vapour and there are reports of failures in fully saturated wood and with White Oak. Very sensitive to UV, requiring protection (UV-blocking varnishes or paints are generally suitable). Note that there are several hundred types of epoxy, and care must be taken to ensure the variety being purchased has in fact been successfully tested for the intended use.

3M 5200: A rubbery, polyurethane sealant in various colors with adhesive properties sometimes used as a glue. Fails as a glue under water saturation without high clamping pressure, and without the proper strength testing I couldnâ€™t do here, itâ€™s not recommended as a stand-alone marine glue. Repairable with epoxy. 5200 is an excellent general purpose sealant with many uses aboard ship, but should not be used structurally.

Liquid Polyurethane: Gorilla Glue, Elmerâ€™s Probond, Elmerâ€™s Ultimate, and others. Versatile in temperature and bonding wet wood with moderate open time, these glues arenâ€™t rated for below waterline use but initial use shows potential as a marine glue. Likes high clamping pressure and fits similar to resorcinolâ€¦it wonâ€™t fill gaps. Will successfully glue green wood at 30% EMC. Repairable with epoxy. Noticeable, yellow-brown glue lines.

PL Premium Construction Adhesive: This polyurethane goo shows promise as a marine glue with further testing and use. Works like 3M 5200 but cures and behaves like liquid poly. Appears to bond well to everything epoxy does, and more where epoxy and liquid poly wonâ€™t, perhaps because of a higher isocyanate contentâ€¦it bonds to difficult surfaces only cyanoacrylate super glues will bond to. The only general-use glue Iâ€™ve found that will bond difficult aliphatic-contaminated surfaces. Appears flexible to temperature and moisture content with gap-filling ability, but as a construction adhesive, its open time is shorter than liquid poly. Appeared to like high clamping pressure, and unlike other glues, wouldnâ€™t bond at all without at least some. Repairable with itself and epoxy. Glue line as in liquid poly.

Urea Formaldehyde Plastic Resin Glue: Weldwood, DAP and others. The old interior furniture standard, and in older marine applications that required well-blended glue lines. Still preferred by many, as it is a no-creep glue easily repaired using epoxy. Long open time, it needs tight fits and 65 degrees F or higher for an overnight cureâ€¦it doesnâ€™t fill gaps. Best glue line among them all and moderate water resistance still make it useful for protected marine brightwork applications. A relatively brittle glue and UV sensitive, it requires protectionâ€¦.but its brittleness is an aid to repairability, as joints can be broken apart for repair. An inexpensive powder with a short, one-year shelf life. Urea-formaldehyde adhesives are gradually and voluntarily being phased out in land-based construction through health-and-environment initiatives such as LEED, but are still common in other uses.

The Titebond Family of Aliphatics: Convenient. No mixing, just squeeze. Short open times, fast tack, and short clamping times. Fast, and an acceptable long-grain layup glueâ€¦in heated, commercial shops, Iâ€™ve had rough-cut Titebond panel layups in and out of the clamps and through the planer inside of an hour. Flexible in temperature and to a lesser extent in moisture content, but the bottled glue can freeze in unheated shops. A flexible glue, it has been reported to creep under load, sometimes several years after the joint was made. The latest â€œTitebond IIIâ€ appears to be a stronger glue than its two predecessors. Difficult glues to repair, as they wonâ€™t stick to themselves and no other glues will except cyanoacrylates, which are too brittle for general use. Epoxy and fabric arenâ€™t bonding to aliphatic glue lines in marine strip construction, compounding repair difficulties. While not definitive, the new PL Premium appears to bond well to Titebond III residue and is worth pursuing by those repairing old white and yellow aliphatic joints.

"Cyanoacrylates:" Better known as Superglue. They bond tenaciously to plastics and ceramics of many sorts, set in a matter of seconds and reach full cure very quickly. Activated by water vapour, they are good for quick repairs to many small items. Cyanoacrylates are brittle and rarely develop the full strength of the material being glued; they are well suited as a temporary fix but are not a structural adhesive for marine use.

Izvorni link je : http://www.boatdesign.net/wiki/MaterialsForBoatbuilding

U pitanju je generalno brodogradnja, ali ako se to radi od drveta... onda je to opet neka vrsta storlarije.

Zanimljiva je boldovana/"zamascena" i podvucena recenica... koja kaze da se ne moze lepiti Titebond PVA lepkom preko istog takvog, starog i osusenog... sto otezava popravke... te ovo treba imati u vidu! Ne znam da li to vazi generalno za sve lepkove za drvo bazirane na PVA (polivinil acetatu)... sto moze biti lako moguce...
U tom konkretnom slucaju gore savetuju koriscenje PL Premium Construction Adhesive baziran na poliuretanu.... super-lepak takodje moze.. ali se ne isplati za vece povrsine.

pozdrav

bogi

Marko Enter · Post by **Marko Enter** » 13 Feb 2008 12:52

Ja sada imam UHU HOLZLEIM D2 iz nemacke 250 g boca je negde oko 4 eura

pozdrav marko

yetta · Post by **yetta** » 01 Aug 2008 10:00

boggy wrote:hm... smesno bi bilo da se danas tutkalo mora kupovati na Visa Virtuon karticu

Našao sam ovu adresu za prodaju tutkala u granulama: http://microcer.co.yu/index.php?page=sh ... 26&lang=sr

Poslao e-mail i dobio odgovor sledeće sadržine:

Poštovani,

Nažalost nemamo maloprodaju u Beogradu,ako vam treba tutkalo možemo poslati
pouzećem,njegova cena je 339,00din/500gr + ptt.
pozdrav,
Microcer

boggy · Post by **boggy** » 01 Aug 2008 14:00

yetta wrote:
boggy wrote:hm... smesno bi bilo da se danas tutkalo mora kupovati na Visa Virtuon karticu
Našao sam ovu adresu za prodaju tutkala u granulama: http://microcer.co.yu/index.php?page=sh ... 26&lang=sr

Poslao e-mail i dobio odgovor sledeće sadržine:

Poštovani,

Nažalost nemamo maloprodaju u Beogradu,ako vam treba tutkalo možemo poslati
pouzećem,njegova cena je 339,00din/500gr + ptt.
pozdrav,
Microcer

Meni ovo zvuci ipak bolje od uvoza...

yetta · Post by **yetta** » 01 Aug 2008 14:13

boggy wrote:Meni ovo zvuci ipak bolje od uvoza...

vala i meni ! Ja se naježim kada pomislim na uvoz.

Nego sad sam bačen u dilemu. Tutkala ima, cena povoljna ali obzirom da sam stvarno sa njime lepio još pre dobrih četrdesetak godina - ja se i ne sećam postupka topljenja ???
Nešto kao kroz maglu, mislim da sam topio indirektno, u konzervi sa malo vode pa sve skupa u posudi sa vrelom vodom, tako nešto !!??
heb... ti sklerozu