Ostrenje alata

Rezbarije, duborez, dodavanje detalja
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mbole
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Post by mbole »

Ja sam u jednom trenutku nasao na Bubanj potoku jedan koji je po istom principu kao ovaj kod Lee Valey-a.
Radi i sa finijim zubima, a platio sam ga koliko me secanje sluzi 700 dinara (toliko sam imao u dzepu).
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Post by BR »

Danas je taj Sonax jedini razmetac koji moze da se nabavi nov, a da radi. Ali na srecu moze i bez njega, a da testera radi, samo zahteva bravarsku stegu sa ravnim umetcima. Moj otac je koristio metod sa istim konceptom, ali na primitivniji nacin, sa cekicem i parcetom flaha, i meni nije uspevalo da postignem konzistentne rezultate, ali sa stegom radi kako treba. Dugo sam se mucio po metodu koji je koristio moj otac, i skoro sam ga i zaboravio posto mi nije lepo radio a onda sam nasao odgovor kod Mike Wenzlofa

Jednostavno, razmetnes bilo cim, malo preko onoga sto treba, i ne mora da bude konzistento. Mozxe da se koristi i parce flaha, za zarezima, kao za velike balvanske testere. Onda testeru stavis izmedju dva lista papira, i stegnes ceo rez u stegu, i stegnes. Papi je dovoljno mekan da kroz njega prodju vrhovi zuba, ali i dovoljno tvrd da ne prodje telo testere, i posle stezanja, zubi ostanu razmetnuti za debljinu papira. A mogu da se stave i dva tri lista, po potrebi.

Evo i videa.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lKUsWFYbwA[/youtube]

Inace je Mike Wenzloff jedan od prvih proizvodjaca custom testera, njegove testere se smatraju vrhunskim, a polovne postizu prilicno visoke cene, posto ih Mike vise ne prav kao posledicu bolestii. A razmetnute su na ovaj nacin.
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Post by momirz »

Njegovu testeru dobijam od coveka koji poznaje (Njega ili onoga ko vodi firmu) i kada je dobijem stvarno cu da zovem da pitam.

Znas li ikoga ovde ko moze sebi kao stolar da priusti stegu gore tipa? Mene su samo ravne (pravo ravne 25 cm celicne) celjusti za moju "Puskarsku" kostale 35E (za neku drugu svrhu - pravljeno kao ortaku)?

Nije bitno, vazno je znanje.

Za finu (tanku) testeru ja ne umem iako sam probao tvrdoglavo kao mazga. Stvarno cu da dodjem gde god da si (i gajba piva ide uz mene i boca prave crnogorske loze i 5l pravog crmnickog vina) cisto da snimimo i ostavimo za klince. Oni koji kod mene dolaze da vide-pitaju nemaju pojma o ovome sto pricamo i kao otkrovenje im bude kad napravim policu za knjige (trivijalnu) dok oni popiju 2L piva - rucno.

Inace mi je lakse i jeftinije da kupim razmetac i da me ne boli glava mnogo . Znam i posle njega ide doterivanje ali on bar stalno napravi isti bocni pritisak sto ja na finijem od 12tpi - ne umem.

Ajde da ostavimo ono sto znamo klincima da se stvarno ne izgubi (kao boje na nasim freskama koje se vise ne restauriraju - ne znamo kako - vec samo konzerviraju).
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Post by BR »

Uopste ti ne treba tezga kao gore. Dovoljna je stega na kojoj mozes da promenis celjusti, a dovoljno je precizno napravljena. Prilicno dobre stege pravi firma u Sremcici, sa promenljivim celjustima duzine 75mm, a prodaju je za 3000 dinara. Set celjusti je koliko se secam 1200. Lepo napisah gore da znam nekoga ko je to radio parcetom flaha i cekicem na parcetu sine za prugu. To sto ja to ne mogu tako da uradim je samo moj problem :D, ali i ilustruje koliki ti nivo preciznosti stega treba.

Evo ti sajt firme.

http://www.beonin-ag.com/index.php?page=bstege

Inace za to koristim stegu za busenje, Proxonovu, od 100mm, uz dva firketa, za ravnocu. I nije kostala bubreg i oko.
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Post by momirz »

Br,

Dobre stege - celjusti- sta god ne mozes da kupis za cenu jednog razmetaca. Nisam masinac ali zivim u gradu masinaca i odokativno za ove pare:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.a ... 43086&ap=1

Mozes da dobijes nista.

Nece niko ni da te pogleda.
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Post by BR »

Ma znam to, i slazem se. Sa druge strane, vecina stolara ima barem kakvu takvu stegu za metal, a dva friketa ili flaha kostaju manje od piva. Cak mislim da moze da se iskoriti i stolarska stega.

A i posle razmetaca, treba ti nesto da poravnja razmetanje. Meni se vise svidja ideja sa stezanjem, nego sa brusenjem zuba sa strane.

A inace su se nekada sve testere tako razmetale, bez kljesta. Koristio se malo parce flaha sa zarezom. Kada smo kod ostavljanja znanja.

Na kraju, ima razlicitih nacina za razmetanje testere, i svi su ispravni ako je krajnji rezultat ispravan. Bolje ih je znati vise, nego se ograniciti na jedan.
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Post by momirz »

Ma sve je to Ok ali deca nemaju za Coca-Colu a bi da naprave gitare Gibson Less Paul.
I gledajuci video zapise i komentare tipa sve moze dodju do ideje "JA TO MOGU" a ne mogu. (Imam svaki dan po nekoga).
I taj neko misli da ce Stanley no5 da mu napravi gitaru.
I poklonim kao sto sam i kao sto cu i onda bude a sta sad cika Zeko?

Ajde pravo da ih ucimo (ja cu finish za koji znam da se pada na dupe - oprostite na vulgarnosti)!

Ajde ne alat nego proizvod.

Za moje police - ravna daska testera i dleto za sat!

PS

Moj finish je stvarno da padnes na dupe. Tesko je da se vidi na fotografijama ali ko dodje i spusti ruku na drvo - kupljen.
Last edited by momirz on 19 Jun 2016 00:31, edited 1 time in total.
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mbole
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Post by mbole »

Ja sam jednom probao ovaj metod i zaje*o se ko i svaki novajlija.
Ocrtale se rupe za srafove pakni ko da sam stancovo list :)
Naravno propustio sam da treba i flah izmedju.
A ovo sto batica koristi na videu je precizna masinska stega za glodalicu od bar 300+ evrova :)

Od ta doba, sto bi reko vladika Danilo "u glavu mi pamet ucesraste", alatkica za razvrtanje, i par prolaza finim brusnim kamenom da je dovedes u normalu.
Mozda je ovo bolje resenje, al mene jednom ujelo...
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Post by momirz »

Ajde da se vratim na temu i ostavim ono sto znam o ostrenju alata za duborez.

Prvo ograda ja ne radum duborez tipa ukras za namestaj, ikone i slicno.

Ali radim ajde da nazovem skulpturni rad i koristim dleta za duborez (mala plitka uska do 12mm).

Kamenje za ostrenje ako se time ne bavis profesionanlno (ne vraca pare u dzep) ce da te kosta vise nego bilo koji rucni alat koji postoji.

Mike Dunbar - The Windsor Institute - je cika koji je osmislio ono sto se danas zove Scary Sharpening.

Digresija (vise ne drzi kurseve za stolice - hteo sam da idem u januaru ali mi je US viza zakasnila za dva dana)

Probajte da nadjete njegov video materijal i videcete kako da ne platite gomilu kamenja za veeeelike pare.
Ja koristim za moja ne ravna dleta no ponavljam ja radim "skulpturni" rad iza koga moze brusni papir - na pravom duborezu ne moze pa oprez sa vase strane!

Mislim da ima na Vimeo - guild of New Hampshire Woodworkers sto je inace izvanredan free izvor za ucenje.

Pitanje Moderatoru:

Postoji ruski torent sajt gde ima izvanredan video materijal na ruskom o ostrenju ali ja ne znam jel on zasticen autorskim pravima (mada nigde na video mat. ne pise da jeste) pa ne ostavljam link. Smem li da ostavim ovde?

Ko bas hoce profi ima(o) je Norton USA u ponudi Arkansas (Translucent Arkansas) slipstones i oilstones, ovo je pravi prirodni Arkansas ali su cene ++

Alternativa su belgijski ili japanski prirodni kamen ali su tek ovde cene++++

No kao i za svaki rad nece kamen da ostri ako ruka ne izvezba pa je moj savet za pocetnike - prvo probajte brusnim papirom ako ne radi nece ni kamen. Kad proradi ali nije dovoljno dobro idite na vise.
Last edited by momirz on 19 Jun 2016 06:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by momirz »

BR izvini,
Zaboravih da ti kazem hvala za informaciju o stegama kod nas.
Ja upravo trazim malu bravarsku koja moze da se postavi i skine a ovi kinezi mi ne lice ni na sta.

Ova :
http://www.beonin-ag.com/index.php?page=bstege
izgleda bas onako kao sto bi meni trebalo.

Hvala
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Post by BR »

Koji god alat za ostrenje da s izabere, rezultat na kraju je prilicno isti, ostaje samo pitanje koliko bro se dolazi do njega. A kod alata nema neke velike razlike u ostrini, bilo da se do nje doslo uljnim kamenoima, vodenim kamenovima, smiglom, laping filmovima ili nekim drugim nacinom. Ono sto se racuna na kraju je samo finoca abraziva, i ravnoca substrata. I kod modernih celika tvrdoca substrata, posto kod njih stropovanje odlazi u istoriju.

Mike dunbar nije izumitelj Scary Sharp metoda ostrenja. On je samo ukrao ideju, koja je postojala pre njega, pa poceo da je promovise. Za ostrenje alata ideja je potekla od Steve Lamantie, na old tools forumu, Mike Dunbar ju je besramno prepisao u svojoj knjizi, bez navodjenja izvora, pa su mu se svi smejali, ali je to nevazna prica u ovom trenutku.

Ostaje jos pitanje brzin rada. Arkanzas je spor, i najjeftiniji metod na duge staze. Ostrenje smirglom je odlicno za ucenje, i za one koji ne rade mnogo, na duze staze je skupo koliko i japanski kemenovi. Problem sa smirglom je sto u nekom trenutku mora da se predje na nesto drugo, kao i kod arkanzasa. P3000 smirgla ima velicinu zrna 7 mikrona, to je malo previse. Strop je resenje i za jedan i za drugi metod, ali samo ako se obradjuju klasicni celici, no i tu ga treba izbegavati, posto ima boljih metoda.

Japanski manmade kamenovi su najbrzi, prilicno skupi u prvom trenutku, i prljavi za rad, ali pruzaju kompletan sistem.

A egzotike tipa prirodnih kamenova ne treba pominjati, oni su i spori, i preskupi, i ne priuzaju nikakve prednosti nad savremenim sistemima.

Kada sam poceo, koristio sam sintetick uljne kamenove, presao na Japance sa sintetickim vodenim, pa ih prodao, posto su mi trebale pare, a i tadasnji Japanci nisu bili na nivou danasnjih. Od tada sam ostrio na smirgli, sa stropom, pa strop zamenio lapping filmovima iz opticke indyustrije, a sada se vracam na Japanske kamenove, ali iz zadnje tehnoloske generacije. Rezultat je uvek bio slican, imam ostar alat, a povecan nivo ostrine je mnogo vise posledica povecanja vestine, nego promene sistema.
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Post by momirz »

Nisam znao ovo za Mike-a no kako ga znam a nemam dlake na jeziku i takodje znam da ni on nema pitacu ga prvom prilikom.
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Post by BR »

Evo originalnog posta sa rec.woodworking, koji je Steve Lamantia objaio 1995 godine. Naravno metod nije njegov, on se pojavljivao u raznim knjigama jos od cetrdesetih godina, ali je kovanica "Scary Shap" tada iskoriscena.

Mike Dunbar pominje Scary Sharp prvi put tri godine posle ovog teksta.
The D&S Scary Sharp(TM) System

[No, you can't sharpen sandpaper. And please don't ask me how I know that.]

[Required warnings:]

[If you don't like sharpening tales, or sandpaper, or handplanes, or any deviation from simple declarative sentences, please don't read this post. Also, it's a process gloat, and it's windbaggy, so be forewarned.]

[And if you prefer one-clause synopses, here: "I sharpened a plane blade with sandpaper." Now move along now.]

For anyone else:

I recently emailed a few folks about some attempts I made at sharpening a plane iron with sandpaper. Some suggested I post my story to the group.

So here it is.

(Rich and David, I've pretty much rehashed my email to you guys here, so you can move on out now, too.)

Let's see. Who's left? Oh.

Dear Mom,

I've recently been experimenting with using sandpaper for honing. I had been getting tired out with the oilstones getting unflat and glazed and needing to be lapped all the time, tired of oil all over the place and on my hands so I couldn't even scratch, tired of having to clean the stones after each use, tired of having to keep a conscious effort going to distribute wear on the stones evenly. So tired of all of this.

So I started thinking about abrasives and abrasive action in general, and read up a bit, and asked around, and found out that there's nothing different, in principle, between sandpaper and an oilstone. Silicon carbide sandpaper (i.e., wet-or-dry) goes up to 600 grit in the hardware and woodworking stores, but up to 2000 grit in the automotive finishing stores, as I learned from David Opincarne, a local rec.woodworker and admitted metalhead who works right here at the school and who sent me some 1200-and 2000-grit samples and who's recently been helping me greatly to understand the secrets of metal. For example, did you know that to produce high-carbon steel, crushed bone from the skull of an infidel is an excellent carburizing agent? Me, neither. Or that hardening the steel in cutting blades is achieved by the sudden and even cooling of the blade, and that the best known way to achieve these dual goals is to quench the blade in the still-living body of an enemy warrior? Same here; I had no idea. David's been teaching me a lot.

Me and him and some other wreck.the.woodwork folks had been talking lately about this abrasive business, and it got onto sandpaper somehow, and so I decided to test something out. For the sharpening-with-sandpaper experiment, I used a slightly-pitted 2" wide jack plane blade that came with an old beat-up Stanley Bedrock #605 I bought last year at a tool swap. The bevel on the plane iron had been somehow ground *concave* by the previous owner (or else it just wore that way), so I first straightened the edge out on the grinding wheel, grinding in straight at first so as not to create a thin edge that would burn, and then grinding in a bevel but stopping a bit short of a real edge, again to prevent burning. Because of this care not to burn the steel, this grinding goes slow and light, but it's time well spent. Time now to lap the back behind the cutting bevel. I took a page out of the plane-sole lapping book -- figuratively speaking of course, you should never tear pages out of a book -- and used very light coatings of 3M "77" spray adhesive to temporarily glue small 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" rectangular pieces of sandpaper along the edge of a sheet of 1/4" plate-glass. The paper I used was Aluminum Oxide in grits 50, 80, and 100, and Silicon Carbide (wet-or-dry to you lay people) in grits of 150, 180, 220, 320, 400, 600, 1200, and 2000. The plate glass was placed with its edge flush to the edge of the workbench.

I lapped the end one inch of the back of the iron on each grit in turn. I didn't use any water; I just went at it dry. So as I lapped -- can you call it lapping if it's dry? -- anyway, about every ten seconds or so I'd stop and brush off the sandpaper with a whisk broom and wipe the blade off on my shirt. (On the coarser grits, I found that a dustbuster vacuum actually cleaned up the paper quite thoroughly, much better than sweeping it off, but this sucking advantage disappeared at around 220 grit.) Since I progressed through the grits so gradually, I found I had to spend only about a minute or so on each grit, including the suck-down and sweep-off and shirt-wipe time.

One trick to efficiency is knowing when you've lapped the back sufficiently on each progressive grit. I had previously had trouble gauging this, and didn't know how to tell when enough is enough. Thanks to a clever suggestion from Jeff Gorman, I tried a trick that seemed to work wonderfully. I have a cheapie Radio Shack 30-power hand microscope -- "microscope" sounds impressive, but it's only $10, although I forget where I got it from -- and used that to tell when the striations from the new grit had replaced all the striations from the previous grit, and when they had, I stopped there and moved on to the next grit.

About ten minutes after starting, I had gone from 50 grit on up to 2000, and there was a mirror finish on the back of that iron the likes of which must be seen. The back of the iron became so shiny I could count my nose hairs in it; 98 on the left, 79 on the right, but 109 and 85 if you count the white ones.

I then jigged the blade in a Veritas honing jig -- which, by the way, Mr. Lee, should be called a honing fixture, not a jig, since a jig's for holding a tool and a fixture's for holding a workpiece and in the sharpening operation the plane iron, while usually thought of as a tool, or as a part of one, is actually in this instance the workpiece -- man, near-terminal digression there, almost lost it for good; Boy, snap out of it! -- I clamped the blade down in the Veritas blade-holder device, taking care to have the hollow-ground bevel resting on the glass perfectly along both edges of the hollow grind. I then adjusted the microbevel cam on the jig up to its full two-degree microbevel setting -- Robin, tell your uncle that Steve said "way to go, old dude" -- and honed away on the 2000-grit. Even though I had not ground a sharp edge on the primary bevel with the bench grinder, even on that little slip of fine 2000 grit it still took only about another couple of minutes before I had a nice sharp little 1/64" microbevel gleaming back at me.

I flipped the blade over on the sandpaper several times, hone and lap, hone and lap, each time gentler and gentler, to remove the little bit of wire edge. (Which, by the way, as a result of using such a fine grit must have been so tiny that it was very hard to see or feel, so pretty much just from my awareness of the process I assumed it was there.) The resulting little thin secondary bevel was shiny. I mean *clean* shiny, like nothing I'd ever seen before. Unlike the secondary bevels I'd previously coaxed out of my hard white Arkansas stone, this one was unbelievably Shiny with a capital S. I mean *clean* shiny, like nothing I'd ever seen before. Oh, I said that already. Okay, it's hard to describe; about the best I can do is to say that it looked almost *liquid* when you catch the light on it just right. I mean, it was so darn clean and shiny that it takes ten lines just to say it was so shiny it's hard to describe.

Of course, shine is not the ultimate goal. But sharpness *is*. Still, they equate. The more shiny, the more uniform the surface is microscopically, and the closer to the geometric ideal of a *line* is the edge, and hence the sharper it is. Cool. I mean *COOL*!!! I was trembling in my Mickey Mouse boots in anticipation. Hell, this cutting edge looked downright *dangerous*! I didn't dare touch it. But yet, there was still something I just *had* to try.

I removed the blade from the jig, and anxiously tried the old cliché "cut a finger off before you can notice and bleed all over your screaming wife in the car on the way to the hospital" test. Oops; no, wait. Sorry, that's the wrong test, for those other kinds of tools. Sorry. For the Neanderthals, it's the "shave some arm hairs off" test. Now I've done this test before, on other blades sharpened up on white Arkansas, and while these other blades would pop *some* hairs off the back of my wrist, many other hairs would just bend on over down under the blade's edge (probably from the sheer weight of four prepositions in a row), and those hairs that *did* pop off would do so quite painfully, as though the blade was more grabbing the hairs and *ripping* them out, and I could feel every one of them offering their stubborn and vengeful resistance. Not much fun, and nothing to be doing voluntarily in front of others.

But the edge on this blade was something else! Not only did it cut off every little hair in its path with total ease, but it didn't hurt at all. In fact, I couldn't feel a thing; for all I could tell, there were no hairs there in its path to begin with. But of course there were many, since I'm Italian and also since I could see the fallen hairs all over the back of the blade. And my arm where I had shaved it was a smooth as a non-Italian baby's butt.

Again, man, this had gotten downright *frightening*.

But of course, the ultimate test of a plane iron's sharpness is what it does on wood. So I put the blade back into the plane, that old early-model Bedrock jack, which I've not yet tuned in any way. I tried it on the edge of a piece of pine, and as I adjusted the blade for the finest cut possible, it glided through the wood with no effort. None whatsoever. In fact, it almost seemed like the plane was pulling itself along, or that the wood was *wanting* to be planed and was throwing itself into the blade -- no, I've not read Krenov -- it took that little effort.

I ended up getting a shaving that was so darn thin I could read newsprint through it easily. Unbelievably easily. So easily, in fact, that I thought for a moment about taking the iron back on out of the plane and putting the shaving over the shiny part of its back and counting my nose hairs again, but by this time I had grown weary of counting nose hairs, and of my concerned wife repeatedly asking me why I was doing that.

I thought, no way, this can't be! So skeptic that I am -- I'm so skeptical, that I can't be fully sure that I'm really that much of a skeptic -- I put a micrometer to the shaving, and get this: it measured .0004 thick! Four ten-thousandths of an inch! (Or, as my eternally-pestered but forever-patient metalmentor David Opincarne showed me, "four-tenths" in machinist talk.) No, I read the mike right. Less than one half way to the very first line after zero.

Man! That's a cubic hair less than one-half of a thousandth of an inch! Incredible! Amazing!

And it just gets better. For a while there, I actually thought I had taken off another shaving that was even thinner, one so thin in fact that it was invisible and of no measurable mass. I'm pretty sure I did, actually, but I'm having a hard time trying to think of a way to check this out, or even to find the spot on the ceiling that it floated up to.

And what about the planed wood itself? Well, the surface the plane iron left on the wood in indescribable! It's like glass! No, it's like glass wet down with water and a tad of liquid soap added and then some Slick-50 and then frozen and polished. And this is on pine, a softwood! Not only that, but I then gave it the torture test: end grain. I put the same piece of wood in my shooting board, and had a go at the endgrain. Man oh man, I've never seen such a smooth surface on *endgrain* in my life. And again, this is on *pine*! The endgrain was almost as smooth as the edgegrain!

This has gotten good! Still, having exclaimed all this, I'm making no claims to the throne of King of the Neanderthals. I'm the first to admit that this was kind of like when I was a kid and one year I batted a thousand in the Kiwanis Grasshoppers when I was really four years too young to actually play in the league but it was the last game of the year and Dad the team manager put me up in a losing game as the last batter just for the novelty of it and to stop my pestering -- he figured I'd get beaned and would shut up for a while -- and the opposing pitcher Terry Crowley the hotshot star started laughing at me because I was so scrawny and tiny and he taunted me who's this, Mickey Mantle or something, and he threw a pitch at my crutch and I just shut my eyes and said a curse and swung and slammed a hard grounder right down the line and under the legs of the first baseman 20 some odd years before Bill Buckner got his chance and I got a hit. I know it was kind of like that, because this shaving wasn't the minimum three feet long as per the Rules for the Contest to Become the King of the Neanderthals, so it shouldn't qualify. But it still feels just as nice. One more good thing is that in the process of taking this plane iron from misshapen funkiness to terrifying sharpness I used up all of about 25 cents worth of sandpaper, and probably about 3 cents worth of spray glue, and about fifteen or so minutes of my time, twenty if you stop for a nosehair count.

When it was all done, I peeled the sandpaper from the glass and threw it away -- well, actually I could have but in truth I stick them together back-to- back and save them in a "used-sandpaper" box for odd tasks that never come up. I then scraped the little bit of residual adhesive from the glass with a razor blade, a quick wipedown with acetone on a piece of paper towel, and the cleanup was done in a minute. No oil, no water, no mess, no glaze or flatness problems to worry about, and a cutting edge that is Scary-Sharp (TM).

I think I'll still keep my stones, though; they can sit atop the packets of sandpaper to help keep them flat.

-- Steve LaMantia [I'm talking about my oilstones.]

Seattle, WA
Inace ovo je samo iz radoznalosti i sprecavanja zaborava, ovakvi detalji su potpuno nebitni van te kategorije. Samo se ostrina racuna.
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Post by momirz »

Poslao email sa prevodom njegovoj supruzi (Susan) i njemu pa se ti nosi dalje sa svojim stavom. Zavrsio
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